[yokai]

— Do humans have value? —

A question many debate either case for, a question many think about and one that no one really know the universal answer to. Because knowing such a thing would mean you know the flow of time in its complete state. No, this question is more a "what do you believe?" type of question and a "yes or no" question. What are your thoughts regarding human value?

My Answer

I believe that no all humans hold value, and that no one ever holds equal amount of value as the next person. Not all human life is "worth existing", and no all is "equally worth at the time". Allow me to explain. For someone to hold value, I believe they have to meet a certain and simple criteria. This criteria is that; "they have to look away from the herd and view themselves as who they are." In other words, only those that have the guts and will to be who they are, rather than what they believe they should be or who they want to be hold value in my eyes. Admit to your mistakes, learn that there are things you cannot do, do not fake yourself to "fit in" and most importantly, follow your own ideals and dreams to the end.

If someone can do that, they hold value in my eyes. (They would also have earned my respect, so there is that.) Though not all hold the same amount of value, at a specific point in time. Where as "what value is" is a subjective view for me, "the amount of value" is an objective observation. At a given point in time, one person holds more value in terms of their usefulness. For example, if you had to chose between two people to save, the one you didn't chose would die. Now one was your best friend and one was a person you just met, but holds the way to save the entire world. If you chose your friend, mankind will fall in some manner. Purely viewed objectively, the "savior" has more value there and then. But say that this man aside from being the "savior" cannot do a thing, he would just sit around.

While your friend is a excellent doctor and surgeon. After the world was saved, who would hold the most value? Your friend, purely objectively would. Though that is only in that current point in time. Humans cannot control time, and we gain dilemmas because we try to plan out the best path ahead of us. While in reality, we cannot tell which is the best path to take. Hence why I believe in the idea that value is in the moment. Take the best option there and then, and if it backfires, fix it when that happens and move on. Though to do that, you need to know value and especially value of people around you. Hence, I believe that no one is equal in value at a specific point in time.

[Jebusfathead]

Human's don't have value imo, it's just a delusion we have to pretend we actually mean something on this planet zooming around a big ball of gas flying around a black hole in the middle of vast emptiness

[Zaiken]

No all we have really done in this universe is polluted a planet. We haven't really contributed to the growth of the universe I suppose life is amazing but that's all.

[yokai]

Human's don't have value imo, it's just a delusion we have to pretend we actually mean something on this planet zooming around a big ball of gas flying around a black hole in the middle of vast emptiness

Then you must also mean that everything we do is worthless, correct? Because if we save someone, if we create wonders of technology or earn a huge fortune, it is all worthless as humans lack any form of value and thus are worthless in the bigger picture. Hence, living, waking up each day and so on is pointless and worthless, in short, humans would better off dead. As, without value there is no reason to do anything. Be it value in fortunes, emotions or anything really.

[Sober]

@12 I think you have a very interesting view on this question, thank you for sharing that.

It seems clear enough that many people find the value of human life to be intuitive. We don’t just feel like we want to live because we are deluded or manipulated by our instincts. We feel like our lives are highly meaningful parts of the universe. Take a look at these three intuitive examples.

First, a universe without consciousness would be empty and meaningless. A world full of real people with minds of their own would seem to be important unlike a world full of robots that are programmed to behave exactly like real people.

Second, consider that we value the lives of friends and strangers. When someone dies we love we experience grief; but when a stranger dies (especially a young one), we can also experience grief and mourn their death. We seem to realize that something important was lost when the person dies.

Third, it is quite possible to end one’s own life—but such a decision does not come easy. Our life can seem horrific and we usually still value it enough to keep on living. We certainly don’t think it would be right to kill miserable people just because their life is awful. We suspect that their life can be worth something even if it isn’t enjoyable. That’s not to say that suicide couldn’t possibly be a rational decision. Perhaps overwhelming pain could be worth avoiding through death in some situations.

Is there any reason to think that human life has value beyond intuition? I want to suggest that we can actually experience that human life is valuable. We know what it’s like to have a mind because that’s exactly how we know we have one in the first place. We know that having a mind involves having experiences—some are positive and some are negative. These experiences are quite complicated. A happy person can experience pain but still highly value their life overall. A miserable person can experience pleasure, but still feel unfulfilled at the end of the day.

Although it is intuitive that human life has intrinsic value, there can be a good reason for that. It can be intuitive because we really do experience our life as having value. It can be difficult to put our experience of our own experience in words, which would explain why it is so difficult to argue that human life has value, even if it is obvious to us.

[Jebusfathead]

Human's don't have value imo, it's just a delusion we have to pretend we actually mean something on this planet zooming around a big ball of gas flying around a black hole in the middle of vast emptiness

Then you must also mean that everything we do is worthless, correct? Because if we save someone, if we create wonders of technology or earn a huge fortune, it is all worthless as humans lack any form of value and thus are worthless in the bigger picture. Hence, living, waking up each day and so on is pointless and worthless, in short, humans would better off dead. As, without value there is no reason to do anything. Be it value in fortunes, emotions or anything really.

If humans were better off dead I don't think that changes anything at all. Doing whatever you do doesn't change anything, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

[yokai]

First, a universe without consciousness would be empty and meaningless. A world full of real people with minds of their own would seem to be important unlike a world full of robots that are programmed to behave exactly like real people.

Well, then what is the difference between a human and a synthetic human that thinks, behave and learn just like a human? Humans are defined by three traits;

• Superior Mental Development
  
• Power of Articulate Speech
  
• Upright Stance
  

If a robot possess those traits, then they are as good as humans by it's very definition. Humans are a form of "system" and we have "glitches" just like a program as well as "pre-programmed" behaviors. (Instincts for example.) So what is the difference?

Second, consider that we value the lives of friends and strangers. When someone dies we love we experience grief; but when a stranger dies (especially a young one), we can also experience grief and mourn their death. We seem to realize that something important was lost when the person dies.

Actually a read a study about this, dunno where exactly though so I am afraid I do not have a source. Though the idea still remains. (Funny, its the same idea media and news channels use each day.) The idea go out that grief is a survival tactic, a way to warn ourselves. When a family member dies, the grief is bigger than when a strange does. This is because a family member is "closer" to us, and thus impact us differently. Now so far this doesn't sound too off from what you said, right so where is the idea? Well the idea goes like this; 

Humans feel grief to remind them that death is always there, and it is a natural reaction for the mind to remind us of that, a way of telling us that "death is a bad thing". So in that sense, grief is a selfish thing.

Third, it is quite possible to end one’s own life—but such a decision does not come easy. Our life can seem horrific and we usually still value it enough to keep on living. We certainly don’t think it would be right to kill miserable people just because their life is awful. We suspect that their life can be worth something even if it isn’t enjoyable. That’s not to say that suicide couldn’t possibly be a rational decision. Perhaps overwhelming pain could be worth avoiding through death in some situations.

Actually, the reason you stop killing yourself is the classic; "what if" question. "What if it gets better?" "What if I can experience more?" and so on. Most people that are serious about killing themselves come to a conclusion that is as follows; "I do not care anymore" and truly mean it. It is not that you no longer value it, it is that you simply do no care for the value that might or might not be there. That is why people in pain is more prone to do it, there is no "what if" for them in most cases. Because of that, it cannot be value and even if it was it wouldn't worth it. Hence, they are more prone to "I do not care about this value that might or might not be there". Value isn't what stops them, it is "What if". At least most cases I know if.

[Jebusfathead]

@12 I think you have a very interesting view on this question, thank you for sharing that.

It seems clear enough that many people find the value of human life to be intuitive. We don’t just feel like we want to live because we are deluded or manipulated by our instincts. We feel like our lives are highly meaningful parts of the universe. Take a look at these three intuitive examples.

First, a universe without consciousness would be empty and meaningless. A world full of real people with minds of their own would seem to be important unlike a world full of robots that are programmed to behave exactly like real people.

Second, consider that we value the lives of friends and strangers. When someone dies we love we experience grief; but when a stranger dies (especially a young one), we can also experience grief and mourn their death. We seem to realize that something important was lost when the person dies.

Third, it is quite possible to end one’s own life—but such a decision does not come easy. Our life can seem horrific and we usually still value it enough to keep on living. We certainly don’t think it would be right to kill miserable people just because their life is awful. We suspect that their life can be worth something even if it isn’t enjoyable. That’s not to say that suicide couldn’t possibly be a rational decision. Perhaps overwhelming pain could be worth avoiding through death in some situations.

Is there any reason to think that human life has value beyond intuition? I want to suggest that we can actually experience that human life is valuable. We know what it’s like to have a mind because that’s exactly how we know we have one in the first place. We know that having a mind involves having experiences—some are positive and some are negative. These experiences are quite complicated. A happy person can experience pain but still highly value their life overall. A miserable person can experience pleasure, but still feel unfulfilled at the end of the day.

Although it is intuitive that human life has intrinsic value, there can be a good reason for that. It can be intuitive because we really do experience our life as having value. It can be difficult to put our experience of our own experience in words, which would explain why it is so difficult to argue that human life has value, even if it is obvious to us.

On phone so cba to actually quote the bit I want, the 'third' bit you talk about can be linked to our instincts similar to what Crovus said about instincts being preprogrammed, because your jaw has the power to completely bite through you tongue in one clean cut, but it's a biological instinct that tells your body 'don't do it you retard' so that could be applied to suicide as well to help our survival