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+--- Thread: Honesty or Cleverness? (/Thread-Honesty-or-Cleverness)
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RE: Honesty or Cleverness? - DaPaus - 12-29-2012
We live in a society where you can't win while you are honest. The best way is to have money or power. If you don't have those to I suggest you to be clever. But my advice, be honest and never handle out of selfishness.
RE: Honesty or Cleverness? - Linuxephus™ - 12-30-2012
(12-29-2012, 06:25 PM)The Alchemist Wrote: But how can cleverness and honesty go hand in hand?
In the thread, I'd mentioned "By clever, I mean generally cunning people who trick others to get ahead of them."
Being clever(cunning) and being honest are exactly two opposite things... For a clever(cunning) person, to trick others, he has to involve dishonesty..
Cleverness used for self serving purposes equates to Dishonesty at the expense of others.
Cleverness used to the benefit of all with-out it being at the expense of others equates to honesty about one's cleverness because it negates any harm being done to others.
Reference Comment #4 where this was explained using different words.
I didn't want to go into a long dissertation on the subject, but seeing as how you've asked that question twice already, I'll state the same thing using a third set of words so you can compare all three sets to make a comparison by.
We'll use the word Hacker here for added reference to gain a better understanding of the first two sets of explanations as well as Ethical in place of Honest and Unethical in place of Dishonest.
Essentially, a Hacker who is clever enough to use that cleverness in an Unethical manner doesn't preclude an Ethical Hacker as automatically being guilty of the same practice.
A Hacker who is clever and uses that cleverness Ethically doesn't preclude an Unethical Hacker of being trust worthy to use the same practice.
Being clever is merely a means of accomplishing something in a cunning manner.
Both of which can be done in either an Ethical way, or an Unethical way.
I hope this better answers your question mate.
RE: Honesty or Cleverness? - FunKx - 12-30-2012
(12-29-2012, 07:29 PM)Dapaus Wrote: We live in a society where you can't win while you are honest. The best way is to have money or power. If you don't have those to I suggest you to be clever. But my advice, be honest and never handle out of selfishness.
Play the game only when you know that honesty will win.
RE: Honesty or Cleverness? - The Alchemist - 12-30-2012
(12-30-2012, 03:47 AM)Linuxephus Wrote:(12-29-2012, 06:25 PM)The Alchemist Wrote: But how can cleverness and honesty go hand in hand?
In the thread, I'd mentioned "By clever, I mean generally cunning people who trick others to get ahead of them."
Being clever(cunning) and being honest are exactly two opposite things... For a clever(cunning) person, to trick others, he has to involve dishonesty..
Cleverness used for self serving purposes equates to Dishonesty at the expense of others.
Cleverness used to the benefit of all with-out it being at the expense of others equates to honesty about one's cleverness because it negates any harm being done to others.
Reference Comment #4 where this was explained using different words.
I didn't want to go into a long dissertation on the subject, but seeing as how you've asked that question twice already, I'll state the same thing using a third set of words so you can compare all three sets to make a comparison by.
We'll use the word Hacker here for added reference to gain a better understanding of the first two sets of explanations as well as Ethical in place of Honest and Unethical in place of Dishonest.
Essentially, a Hacker who is clever enough to use that cleverness in an Unethical manner doesn't preclude an Ethical Hacker as automatically being guilty of the same practice.
A Hacker who is clever and uses that cleverness Ethically doesn't preclude an Unethical Hacker of being trust worthy to use the same practice.
Being clever is merely a means of accomplishing something in a cunning manner.
Both of which can be done in either an Ethical way, or an Unethical way.
I hope this better answers your question mate.
People normally don't use cleverness in the right way. Hence they're not honest but clever(cunning).. I'm talking about that cleverness... Using cleverness in the right way can only be used to protect yourself and not gaining something... But, there too, we may not be honest all the time.
RE: Honesty or Cleverness? - V1P3R - 12-30-2012
The clever is the guy that knows when to be honest and when not to be honest i would say that only the clever is the one that will survive. Honest people always get in trouble lol
RE: Honesty or Cleverness? - Linuxephus™ - 12-30-2012
(12-30-2012, 04:50 PM)The Alchemist Wrote:(12-30-2012, 03:47 AM)Linuxephus Wrote:People normally don't use cleverness in the right way. Hence they're not honest but clever(cunning).. I'm talking about that cleverness... Using cleverness in the right way can only be used to protect yourself and not gaining something... But, there too, we may not be honest all the time.(12-29-2012, 06:25 PM)The Alchemist Wrote: -snip-
"People normally don't use cleverness in the right way" which by your own statement does leave room for the Few who are the exception to the General Rule Of Thumb (the "normal" rule of thumb). How one "normally" uses cleverness is not being contested. How some of the Few who also use cleverness in an Ethical manner also holds just as true, even if few and far between so to speak.
Using cleverness to protect oneself is one way of many ways that cleverness can be used Ethically and still "gain something". However, "gaining something" for those who're honest and clever is more correctly termed as Earning something.
Gaining something still requires motive operandi.
Normally such will result in the more unethical means by which to gain.
Rarely, but still true nonetheless, being honest and clever also leads to the natural course of events where something can be Earned ethically in due course.
The unethical, and the use of being clever, Gains something outside of the natural course of events by accelerating those events nefariously.
In conclusion: I'm well known for being honest and possessing a great deal of cleverness. Yet you'll find none who can or will attest to me ever having been dishonest with that cleverness because my actions are simply honest and clever, which leaves no need of hiding anything thru the use of being cunning.
How one uses cleverness/cunning determines their state of affairs as either Ethical or Unethical.
One cannot label Clever/Cunning as nefarious when it is the act of How one uses that cleverness and/or cunning that determines their character.
Not the state of being clever/cunning in and of itself.
RE: Honesty or Cleverness? - LightX - 12-30-2012
I believe that both are very important. They can both be used to its advantage. There can be times where we need cleverness because without it, none of us would probably be here. There has to be some cleverness involved in everything, even something as simple as hiding something that will hurt someone. We also need honesty because without it, no one would have trust. If i had to pick between the two, I would choose honesty because I would rather have peoples trust.
RE: Honesty or Cleverness? - Linuxephus™ - 12-30-2012
(12-30-2012, 07:21 PM)LightX Wrote: I believe that both are very important. They can both be used to its advantage. There can be times where we need cleverness because without it, none of us would probably be here. There has to be some cleverness involved in everything, even something as simple as hiding something that will hurt someone. We also need honesty because without it, no one would have trust. If i had to pick between the two, I would choose honesty because I would rather have peoples trust.
I too would agree with that assessment for the reality it presents by virtue of it being the simple truth.
Additional example: Tools offered here for testing, etceteral, doesn't necessarily make those tools inherently unethical.
How those tools are used by the individual themselves is what determines the character of the individual, not the Tool being used.
RE: Honesty or Cleverness? - The Alchemist - 12-31-2012
(12-30-2012, 07:03 PM)V1P3R Wrote: The clever is the guy that knows when to be honest and when not to be honest i would say that only the clever is the one that will survive. Honest people always get in trouble lolBut, by saying that, we are disrespecting all the people who taught us to be honest.