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+---- Thread: Left-hand, Right hand, My foundation theory. [Religion] (/Thread-Left-hand-Right-hand-My-foundation-theory-Religion)
RE: Left-hand, Right hand, My foundation theory. [Religion] - Feat - 08-02-2013
(08-02-2013, 02:43 AM)Chaos Wrote: [quote='Evangelist' pid='65347' dateline='1375406895']
Quote:Absolutely not. I am not confusing the action of repenting. You can repent and accept your crimes or short comings but, again. As the bible implies. the left hand burglar did not go to heaven because of his crimes. He didn't go because he did not repent. If he were to go to hell for being a burglar then so would the other. Since the other one cried he went to heaven. The bible emphasizes on the last action, and not the crime.
Repent is regret and remorse. Asking for forgiveness. So asking God for forgiveness isn't really a "get out of jail free" card. Simply asking for forgiveness doesn't automatically grant you access to heaven. An omniscient being, by definition, will know whether or not you truly do want to change and regret what you did. Him crying out for help was only giving him the opportunity to possibly go to heaven/or some other benefit, but God was still the final judge.
Quote:What is wrong? Another useless label.
There was no second chances. Looking at the situation with a godless perspective he did not get a chance because he ended up dying. The point of a second chance is invalid. Also the whole repent part is a getaway free card. I have a lot of problems with forgiveness and repent. People never learn. NEVER. The burglar according to the bible might have truly repented but, did he learn from his crimes? No. He robbed and went to heaven because he cried. That is not fair to me.
Sorry, I wasn't looking at it from a godless perspective. Because when you say they had the choice to repent, I see it from a biblical standpoint and that it's directly talking to God. So I associated them with already being aware of an afterlife, and the dude "crying" wasn't trying to not be killed, but rather not go to Hell.
How are you sure people never learn? Can we not agree people make mistakes, especially in desperate times? And we can't be certain he didn't learn from his crimes. Actually, I might argue the opposite and say he did, otherwise the omniscient God might not have forgave him.
I can agree that people change.
As for whether or not he learned about his mistake, I doubt it as he never acknowledge his mistake compared to his other.
RE: Left-hand, Right hand, My foundation theory. [Religion] - Evangelist - 08-02-2013
(08-02-2013, 02:43 AM)Chaos Wrote: Repent is regret and remorse. Asking for forgiveness. So asking God for forgiveness isn't really a "get out of jail free" card. Simply asking for forgiveness doesn't automatically grant you access to heaven. An omniscient being, by definition, will know whether or not you truly do want to change and regret what you did. Him crying out for help was only giving him the opportunity to possibly go to heaven/or some other benefit, but God was still the final judge.
That is only if god existed. This whole point is fruitless. Either one of us could be wrong or both, there is no real standing ground on here.
Quote:Sorry, I wasn't looking at it from a godless perspective. Because when you say they had the choice to repent, I see it from a biblical standpoint and that it's directly talking to God. So I associated them with already being aware of an afterlife, and the dude "crying" wasn't trying to not be killed, but rather not go to Hell.
How are you sure people never learn? Can we not agree people make mistakes, especially in desperate times? And we can't be certain he didn't learn from his crimes. Actually, I might argue the opposite and say he did, otherwise the omniscient God might not have forgave him. Just his existence in heaven could be proof that he has learned from his crime(s)
I can say he didn't learn. He got killed with no problems. Sure he repented and went to "heaven". Death penalty is completely retarded. Why do I say they never learn? They just die and if they suffer is a fruitless suffering. He should have been tortured or have his hands cut off. Death never teaches anything to anybody. Instead frees them
RE: Left-hand, Right hand, My foundation theory. [Religion] - Nil - 08-02-2013
(08-02-2013, 02:53 AM)Evangelist Wrote: That is only if god existed. This whole point is fruitless. Either one of us could be wrong or both, there is no real standing ground on here.
Okay, so you're saying that both burglars have no belief/knowledge of God or the afterlife. But one cowardly cried out, and the God, who he wasn't aware heard him, let him in heaven for repenting? While the other took his punishment, died, went to hell, all because he didn't cry/scream? Yet, if he did decide to cowardly cry/scream, God might have forgave him and let him in heaven also?
lol, please correct me because I'm confused right here. Because I can see that as being completely unfair and unjustifiable.
(08-02-2013, 02:53 AM)Evangelist Wrote: I can say he didn't learn. He got killed with no problems. Sure he repented and went to "heaven". Death penalty is completely retarded. Why do I say they never learn? They just die and if they suffer is a fruitless suffering. He should have been tortured or have his hands cut off. Death never teaches anything to anybody. Instead frees them
You said people never learn, I don't know if you mean that literally, but if so, wouldn't it make more sense just to kill them? Even cutting their hands off doesn't change them. Unless the torture is just out of complete vengeance.
Death may not teach that person, but it sure as hell teaches another.
I guess if you don't believe in an afterlife, the death doesn't teach anybody, because then there's nothingness. But with heaven in mind, if you repent, you'd be in heaven a different person.
RE: Left-hand, Right hand, My foundation theory. [Religion] - Evangelist - 08-02-2013
(08-02-2013, 03:07 AM)Chaos Wrote:(08-02-2013, 02:53 AM)Evangelist Wrote: [quote='Chaos' pid='65351' dateline='1375407798']That is only if god existed. This whole point is fruitless. Either one of us could be wrong or both, there is no real standing ground on here.
Okay, so you're saying that both burglars have no belief/knowledge of God or the afterlife. But one cowardly cried out, and the God, who he wasn't aware heard him, let him in heaven for repenting? While the other took his punishment, died, went to hell, all because he didn't cry/scream? Yet, if he did decide to cowardly cry/scream, God might have forgave him and let him in heaven also?
lol, please correct me because I'm confused right here. Because I can see that as being completely unfair and unjustifiable.
No I am not. I am looking at the whole situation with a godless perspective. God is not present on the situation. You are still trying to put god in the scenario.
(08-02-2013, 02:53 AM)Evangelist Wrote: I can say he didn't learn. He got killed with no problems. Sure he repented and went to "heaven". Death penalty is completely retarded. Why do I say they never learn? They just die and if they suffer is a fruitless suffering. He should have been tortured or have his hands cut off. Death never teaches anything to anybody. Instead frees them
You said people never learn, I don't know if you mean that literally, but if so, wouldn't it make more sense just to kill them? Even cutting their hands off doesn't change them. Unless the torture is just out of complete vengeance.
Death may not teach that person, but it sure as hell teaches another.
I guess if you don't believe in an afterlife, the death doesn't teach anybody, because then there's nothingness. But with heaven in mind, if you repent, you'd be in heaven a different person.
You are going back and forth. I said I am viewing the whole scenario without God. Tell me how many people have learned from watching others die. Please do.
RE: Left-hand, Right hand, My foundation theory. [Religion] - Nil - 08-02-2013
(08-02-2013, 03:13 AM)Evangelist Wrote: No I am not. I am looking at the whole situation with a godless perspective. God is not present on the situation. You are still trying to put god in the scenario.
Wait, what I just wrote was implying there was no existence of a God. I mentioned God, but the burglars involved have no idea. ?
(08-02-2013, 02:53 AM)Evangelist Wrote: You are going back and forth. I said I am viewing the whole scenario without God. Tell me how many people have learned from watching others die. Please do.
I don't see why we can't view this subject from both viewpoints. This isn't really related to the main thread directly so I can present an opposing view.
If you watch someone die in front of you for doing something, will you do the same thing that got him killed? Punishment is one of the biggest ways to get people to learn not to do something, and death being the most extreme punishment.
The reason why all most posts imply that both burglars know of God and I'm not using a godless perspective is due to this line.
Quote:The right-hand burglar the weakest burglar was the one who cried out for god
RE: Left-hand, Right hand, My foundation theory. [Religion] - Evangelist - 08-02-2013
(08-02-2013, 03:20 AM)Chaos Wrote:(08-02-2013, 03:13 AM)Evangelist Wrote: No I am not. I am looking at the whole situation with a godless perspective. God is not present on the situation. You are still trying to put god in the scenario.
Wait, what I just wrote was implying there was no existence of a God. I mentioned God, but the burglars involved have no idea. ?
No god period. Not that they didn't have a clue about it no. NO god at all.
Quote:I don't see why we can't view this subject from both viewpoints. This isn't really related to the main thread directly so I can present an opposing view.
If you watch someone die in front of you for doing something, will you do the same thing that got him killed? Punishment is one of the biggest ways to get people to learn not to do something, and death being the most extreme punishment.
Why can't we view it from both points? Because your beliefs are uncertain and it is not a practical point to use on a debate, the whole argument is completely irrelevant to the main post. It was a theory explaining the foundation on both terms. From my Satanic view the guy who repented is a weak person. From yours he is not.
Death is not the most extreme punishment. Once you are dead you don't feel anything. That is that.
RE: Left-hand, Right hand, My foundation theory. [Religion] - Nil - 08-02-2013
Evangelist Wrote:No god period. Not that they didn't have a clue about it no. NO god at all.Well, at this point, I'm going to have to say, I'm out. I'm completely lost on why this must be discussed with no God in mind.
Evangelist Wrote:Why can't we view it from both points? Because your beliefs are uncertain and it is not a practical point to use on a debate, the whole argument is completely irrelevant to the main post. It was a theory explaining the foundation on both terms. From my Satanic view the guy who repented is a weak person. From yours he is not.
Death is not the most extreme punishment. Once you are dead you don't feel anything. That is that.
I'd say that from a societies viewpoint, death is the most extreme punishment. At least allowed. It offers no hope and one that most people fear.
I also want to clarify that my beliefs don't involve an afterlife, but I'm presenting them as an opposition to your beliefs. I would say I can share a viewpoint with the afterlife involved in a religious debate. It's as practical as it gets when we're debating religion/beliefs.
RE: Left-hand, Right hand, My foundation theory. [Religion] - Evangelist - 08-02-2013
The reason I don't want to have a god involved on it is because I am talking about the action he committed by crying. He was weak. A man dies in silence and not screaming his lungs out for public forgiveness. Plus I see the belief of god completely false.
The extreme punishment varies like you said. Others fear death and others like me do not. To me death is not the worse punishment.
RE: Left-hand, Right hand, My foundation theory. [Religion] - Nil - 08-02-2013
(08-02-2013, 03:41 AM)Evangelist Wrote: The reason I don't want to have a god involved on it is because I am talking about the action he committed by crying. He was weak. A man dies in silence and not screaming his lungs out for public forgiveness. Plus I see the belief of god completely false.
The extreme punishment varies like you said. Others fear death and others like me do not. To me death is not the worse punishment.
Well, I guess I'd have to look more into the situation that what is all presented in the original post to give better responses. But, does it say why the man is crying? Or do we have to assume it's only because he doesn't want to die?
True. But from what is allowed lawfully, would you agree that Death is the most extreme punishment? At least from society as a whole it is. The death penalty always causes controversy and doubt. So I think it would be safe to assume, that for most, that the visual of someone dying for an act is a good, I guess fear tactic, to allow someone else to learn. Don't get me wrong, any form of punishment is a good fear tactic(jail), but death seems to rattle more people.
RE: Left-hand, Right hand, My foundation theory. [Religion] - Evangelist - 08-02-2013
(08-02-2013, 03:49 AM)Chaos Wrote:(08-02-2013, 03:41 AM)Evangelist Wrote: The reason I don't want to have a god involved on it is because I am talking about the action he committed by crying. He was weak. A man dies in silence and not screaming his lungs out for public forgiveness. Plus I see the belief of god completely false.
The extreme punishment varies like you said. Others fear death and others like me do not. To me death is not the worse punishment.
Well, I guess I'd have to look more into the situation that what is all presented in the original post to give better responses. But, does it say why the man is crying? Or do we have to assume it's only because he doesn't want to die?
True. But from what is allowed lawfully, would you agree that Death is the most extreme punishment?
In the bible it doesn't specify. It can be taken that he was crying for literal salvation as Jesus can literally save people or that his cries were directed towards true forgiveness.